Ep 17: Inspiration for Early Career Nurses – Liam Caswell on vulnerability, overcoming burnout, and career success.

Posted May 16, 2023

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Show Notes —

Liam Caswell Coaching created a nurse career and life coaching service where they helped nurses navigate the life and career struggles that they face day to day and help them see that they have so many options.

In this episode, Nathan Illman sits down with Liam Caswell as he shares his own experiences of adversity and challenges he has overcome that influenced his career and desires to help other nurses as well.

Listen and learn in this episode.

KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE

There is such a gap in the support, guidance, mentorship, and coaching for nurses globally that it is preventable.
PNA program: Professional Nurse Advocate program is all about therapeutic clinical supervision. Nurses in leadership positions are being trained to provide care to other nurses; that is a space for reflection.
The gap lies for nurses when they are trained to be clinicians and do cardio, CPR, and all of the things but are not trained in humaneness. They are not trained in the human side of health care and how to face adversity, like in constant fight or flight.
Shame is an emotion we all experience, which shows up with things like imposter syndrome and comparing ourselves to others when we do not feel like we are doing a good enough job.
Many people think that as a leader, educator, and senior, being emotionally vulnerable will trip you up, or people will assume that you are not strong, which is the opposite of being true.
The biggest challenge that people see now is that nursing is not a long-term career because of how it is set up.

It is the individual’s experience, their belief about themselves, and their perceived fear or worries about what will happen that Liam and his team try to tackle in their program and help them see that they have all the options and all the choices.

Today’s Guest:

Liam Caswell is a senior healthcare leader who seeks to draw upon his international nursing and healthcare experience to guide nurses to achieve work/life balance while maintaining their values and integrity. They help nurses and midwives across their careers land their next role with ease, support, and confidence!

Connect with Liam Caswell here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-grant-caswell/

https://www.facebook.com/highperformancenursing/

https://www.instagram.com/highperformancenursing/

https://www.youtube.com/@highperformancenursing/

Want to start with Liam Caswell Coaching? Go to:

https://www.liamcaswell.com/

Follow Nathan and Nurse Wellbeing Mission for more practical preventative mental health tools for nurses and midwives:

Website: www.nursewellbeingmission.com

Instagram: @_nursewellbeingmission

Twitter: @NurseWellbeing

Transcript —

Nathan Illman 00:00

Hey, everyone is Nathan here. Welcome to the podcast. If you don’t know who I am, I’m a clinical psychologist who is really passionate about supporting the mental health and well-being of nurses and midwives recently had a really nice reminder as to why I do this work. One of the things that led me to create nurse while being mission was just witnessing the incredible care my dad received while he was dying in ICU, and had a few experiences recently that reminded me of this. And it really drives me and gives me motivation to put this work out into the world and to help people like yourself listening to this. So let’s talk about today’s episode. In this episode, I’m talking to Liam Caswell, who is someone that I really, really admire. As a brief introduction to limb, he used to be a nurse unit manager in Australia and then transitioned to developing his own life coaching, and career support business, which has just taken off and is just so impressive what he’s managed to achieve. Liam displays what I think is just such an admirable level of vulnerability, he really eloquently talks about the human experience, and just cut through some of the crap, quite frankly, that we, as human beings, kind of generate in our own minds to get in the way of our own selves, he’s got a really great perspective that is extremely helpful for his target audience, which tends to be nurses that are just graduating from their courses who are going out into the world of work. And he shares his amazing own personal experiences of mental ill health and burnout, and how he overcame things, and just gives people solid advice, including really, really helpful mindset tips and tricks. So this episode is fantastic. It’s a conversation between the two of us, I really, really enjoy connecting with Liam every time I have any interaction with him, and he shares his personal story, and it’s really, really powerful. So if you are someone who is early career, this is going to be really helpful for you. But I think anyone any nurse or even midwife will find this conversation just fresh and enlightening. So we’ll be diving into it shortly. Before we do that, if you haven’t already started following me on social media, you can find my free Facebook group to search for nurse and midwife wellbeing mission. So when we share the podcast and loads of other videos, resources, things about events, including my new stress masterclass, which is a free event that you can sign up to and attend there. It’s my core training for nurses and midwives that I’m really, really excited about. You can find us on Twitter at nurse wellbeing and you can find me on Instagram at underscore nurse wellbeing mission. So let’s get straight into this conversation with Liam Caswell. Right live, welcome to Nurse Wellbeing Mission podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. And I always enjoy our conversations. So yeah, well, welcome.

Liam Caswell 03:17

Thank you so much. I’m so thrilled to be here.

Nathan Illman 03:21

In this conversation, I would love to dive into your career, where you started, and some of the highs and lows, because I know that that has really influenced what you’re doing now. And of course, I’d love for you to sort of tell the listeners about what it is you’re doing now with your business. And I guess it really does relate to well-being in the sense that you’re providing assistance for kind of graduates on you. And there’s obviously a lot of anxiety and stress around that particular part of people’s career. So let’s start with you to begin with, why don’t you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your journey where you started with nursing and kind of where that led to.

Liam Caswell 04:06

Awesome. Well, thanks for this opportunity. It’s so great to connect and to chat with you and as well being audience. So I’m Liam, I’ve been a nurse for over 12 years now, if my maths grades and I graduated in Edinburgh in the UK, and I started my career in a busy acute Clinical Decision Unit. So like a really busy kind of IDI extension, baptism of fire. I was 19 When I graduated, so I was super, super young. And I was thrown into the world of nursing and of course, from the get-go into probably one of the most busiest areas in a busy hospital down in Redding, just outside London. So lots of things were going through my mind at that point I left home and I was really kind of struggling with the coming into the industry and coming in with kind of no support and just being thrown into the mix. So So from there, I spent about a year and a half there. And that’s where I noticed my like, people-pleasing tendencies and all of my high-performing tendencies. I was like, desperate to progress and to proceed. And within six months of being there, I had like applied for this postgraduate certificate that like, no one applies for within six months, but I was like, No, I’m gonna do it. And I got in, and I was like, No, I’m just gonna keep progressing. And I had this, like, we all need to prove myself, I think, because I was so young, I had a lot of people telling me at the time, you’re going to life experience, you’re not going to be a great nurse is what I heard throughout my whole degrees. So I was trying to prove myself. From there, I kind of built my career in critical care and moved to intensive care. And I worked there in the UK for a year and a half did a lot of agency work. For NHS nurses listening, I can relate to the low pay and the conditions and having to like really struggle every month to make money. I worked, you know, 312 hour days a week in my critical care job, and then two or three days extra as an agency nurse, so I was working, you know, between five to 612 hour days a week, and I still was on my credit card. I still was you know, I still couldn’t make ends meet. And that was 1010 12 years ago. So I can’t even imagine what it’s like today. From there, I met my partner who is Australian, and we moved to Australia landed in Sydney. And I just thought to myself, I’m just going to take some space because even three years and I was like, ah, is this really what I want to do? That’s kind of like over it. And I gave myself about an I did barista training and did like, you know, working in hospitality and I absolutely detested it, I could not face. I even tried cell sales, and I was selling like carwash stuff to people. And I was like, This is not for me. So I got my app registration and got into the hospital system did an agency for two years in Sydney, what all over public and private, that was a real experience and kind of just kept building my skills. So what with universities and did lots of different things there. And then we moved to Canberra where my partner got a job. And I joined the system there. And I was kind of like the first time in Australia that I really noticed like a really, really bad cultural healthcare system. I took a job in an ICU, I was full-time. And within about six months, I dropped to like two, three days a week, three, eight hour days, because the culture was so bad. And it was really impacting my well-being and my mental health. And from there, that’s when I kind of started seeing a psychologist, right as a nurse. And I love talking about that because I think it’s so important. So from there, started seeing a psychologist started unpacking my high-performing tendencies, and this need to prove myself to others and really started to see that, you know, I did have a choice and that I was in control and that I didn’t have to be the victim as such as kind of what I thought of myself at the time. And then from there study, kind of unlocking some career paths to study just betting on myself, started just to having self-confidence and believing that I could create a nursing career on my terms. And I did that through applying for education jobs, I loved educating people. So I became an advanced life support trainer, and taught people how to recognize deteriorating patients for a year. And then just from there, built my career. So medical educator looked after 150 staff across five inpatient acute medical wards, where for years, they had had no education, and it was a hot mess. And we, you know, really transformed that. And then I became an assistant manager, all whilst doing two masters. So I say, well, high-performing tendencies stopped. They didn’t, and they continue today. But I believe that I use them now for goods, and I use them to empower me and other people. But yeah, I built my career up there. And then I got to nurse unit manager, which was my dream job. I always always wanted to have a platform to be able to change the culture and influence nurses and our patients. And I got there. And it was, it was hard like it was rough. It was a rough job. And there was just absolutely no support. And on reflection through my whole career. I had no one to go to no one to guide me no one to support me in my decision making. No one ever saw my skill set. No one was ever like you really created this or you’re really good at this in oil, so then didn’t see it. So apparent. Probably three or four times through my career. I was very depressed and anxious for a while. And I got to a place where I just thought enough is enough people need help. And I felt compelled in the experiences that are talent to be that person that offered help. So I quit my ping nurse unit manager job, the security, the stability, and I went all in on creating a nurse career and life coaching service where I help nurses navigate the life and career struggles that they face day to day and help them see that they have so many options and that they are incredible and that they can do whatever they want with their nursing life and career and Yeah, that’s my mission now is to just help nurses across the lifespan. So we help graduates predominantly, but we work with nurses 4050 years into their career that are at the end of their career as well. So that’s been such an incredible experience to help people just see that they have options. So hopefully that answers your question. That’s like 12 years and three, four minutes. But that’s me. That’s my life story.

Nathan Illman 10:25

Fantastic. Would it be fair to say that your own experiences of adversity and some of the challenges that you’ve overcome and working your way through the system have really influenced what you’re doing now and your desire to help the nurses in the way that you’re helping them?

Liam Caswell 10:42

Oh, 100%. I’m just like, so compelled to make sure that people don’t go through what I went through. I just feel like there’s such a gap in the support, the guidance, the mentorship, the coaching, for nurses, globally, that it’s just so it’s preventable. You know, we’re in the business of preventing our patients from falling, preventing our patients from doing X, Y, and Z. But we are yet to like focus that lens on us. How can we prevent all of this from happening? And I know that you and I share that belief that it’s totally 100% preventable. And it’s something that we need to prioritize?

Nathan Illman 11:20

Yeah, it really is, I think there’s just not enough resources and effort put into that. I know, over in the UK, I’m not sure if you’re aware of the PNA program, professional nurse advocate program, which is something that’s started since you left the UK, which is definitely moving in the right step where it’s all about restorative clinical supervision. So nurses in sort of leadership positions are being trained to provide supervision to other nurses, that is really a space for reflection. So it sounds like that is to kind of fill that gap that you were talking about where you didn’t have any support, and no one to talk to, you know, colleagues, which when you first told me that I was so surprised, you know, that you’ve managed to make your way up the kind of career ladder to such a senior position. But along that journey, never had anyone apart from the external support that you’d reached out to the psychologist and I know that it was it during your career, then you had coaching as well, or was that after you left?

Liam Caswell 12:20

Yeah, it’s funny, because I think that, like, it’s great that that’s happening with the PNA program, that’s awesome. And there’s such a need for it. For me, the psychologist was like a turning point, and me taking back ownership of my life. And for me, overcoming all of the like life and, you know, kind of career trauma, I guess, that I had, because that’s where the gap law is for us is that we’re trained to be clinicians, we’re trained to, you know, do cardio, like CPR, and all of the things. But we’re not trained in the humaneness. We’re not trained in the human side of health care, and how to human in adversity, like in constant fight or flight. And that’s what we experienced day in day out, is, you know, this roller coaster ride. And we’re just taught to suppress it all. And there’s no way of processing. And so I’m really glad that that’s happening. But you know, really, what I think is missing is the support for us to normalize the human experience as a clinician, I think that that, for me was something that I just continued to push down, instead of just being like, oh, it’s totally normal for me right now, to feel grief, the patient just died, like I should not beat myself up. Because I now need to go and take three other patients like I need to create some space for myself. And I think we need to do better in the industry in that, in that space.

Nathan Illman 13:44

Something I have a real sort of personal interest in. And I guess it’s sort of where some of my expertise lie is understanding the experience of shame. And shame is something that it’s an emotion that we all experience. But it’s something that I think often people don’t have much of an understanding or even a real awareness of. And it’s this feeling of not being good enough. That’s what’s at its core. And it really shows up with things like impostor syndrome and comparing ourselves to others, when we don’t feel like we’re doing a good enough job. So you know, this sort of comes up in this concept of moral distress or moral injury within healthcare, where resources and staffing are just so short, that you’ve just don’t feel like you could be the kind of nurse that you want to be or provide the kind of care that you want to be. And it’s where we’re sort of doubting ourselves, basically. And I know that you’ve sort of shared before about how you would kind of compare yourself to others. And I’m just curious to know a bit more about your experience, perhaps of shame when you were at those darkest points and things were really hard for you. Did you experience that? Was it about kind of thinking you weren’t good enough compared to others or just tell us a little bit about that?

Liam Caswell 14:57

Totally. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. It’s a shame. Like, it’s so much shame through the whole process that I think I had lots of different, like, flavors of shame, oh, varieties of shame. You know, like, I don’t know, like weirdly had shame around being a male. And also like, you know, like just standing out and not being part of the pack, you know, that was something being LGBTQIA plus, like, that was another thing that just was like, felt like another show. And then like, almost shame for being young in the career like, because people would like fine upon me moving up the ladder, and there would be chatter behind the scenes. And then shame day to day around, not being able to deliver, you know, like that what you touched on there is being overworked and us being you know, put in situations where it’s just completely unreasonable for us to not experience shame, like I kind of see that all the time in my coaching, it’s like, it’s unreasonable for you in this moment to not be experiencing impostor syndrome, or shame or fear or worry, because look at the situation that you’re in. So I would say for me, the shame probably was most prevalent as a built my career as I got higher and higher and moved up the chain. Because I don’t know maybe naively, I thought I was gonna get more support, more help, more access to guidance, and insights, but it just kind of compounded it, it just got worse, because now you’re responsible for 50 staff, and 30 patients who have like, you know, lots of family members, and then you’ve got a medical team and an MDT underneath you. And, you know, you carry all of that. And there’s no way to process that there’s nowhere to go. And if you do ever raise that you do ever say You know, I’m really struggling right now. It’s like we have this inability to accept, like emotional vulnerability, as clinicians, even though if our patient burst into tears, we’ll be sitting there and holding the hand. But for each other, we’re just like, pull your socks out, get on with it. I’ve literally had people say that to me. I’ve had people be like, Why are you crying pleat, one manager said to me to cry, and I’m a crier, like so. I’m an emotional person, I will wear my emotion almost. And I will go there. Yeah. And they said to me, they could see it and they said, Don’t cry, like, Please don’t cry. And I’m like, Oh, how interesting. Like, you, you’re so uncomfortable with emotion. And that says more about you, that you’re not allowing me to express my emotion in this moment. You know, I had a day, Nathan, where I had eight complaints come in, in one day as a nurse unit manager. And like two of them were like Human Rights Commission complaints. And then the rest of them are all like other little kinds of micro complaints. But they just came in one after the other. Right? Like, it was just one of those days. I just felt immense shame. I was like, I am responsible for this team. And of course, my brain made it mean everything about me. Like it was all my fault. Like, I’m terrible. I’m sure of all of the things. And I. At the time, I didn’t have access to coaching and psychology. And I’ve done a lot of work with psychology, but I was like, I was in the moment. And I was in shame and there was no getting out of it. And I remember saying to my manager, I need to talk about this. And that was the person that said, you know, don’t cry. And when they left, I, of course, cried. I’d like one of my graduates of all people walked into my office and was like, hey, Liam, I want to change my roster. And they saw me crying. And like, I was like, You know what, it’s fine like emotional vulnerability is something that I pride myself on. And they came and gave me a hug. And they were like, Oh, my God, I’m so sorry, you’ve had such a bad day. And I just was like, Oh, my God, there are humans work in health care. And a lot of people think that as a leader, as an educator, as a senior, that being emotionally vulnerable, is going to like, trip you up, or, you know, people are going to think that you’re not strong. And I found the opposite to be true. Of course, I didn’t spend my days crying, you know, in my office, but I would express my emotion. And it helped everybody see how much I was passionate about the work that we were doing. And it also helps them humanize me and connect to me better. So I think we’ve got that wrong as well. I think we need to feel the shame and experienced that and the team are going to connect you better if you’re if you humanize it and say hey, well, yeah, I’m a human. And I feel shame to like, the fact that we had 10 falls this month. It’s not great. Like, you know, let’s work through it together, instead of just brushing it off and being like, Let’s do better next month. It should be zero.

Nathan Illman 19:25

Yeah, that vulnerability is really a bridge to a deeper connection. As you mentioned, healthcare is about human experience and is ultimately about relationships. Isn’t it? As you work in a team with other human beings you work with patients. Who are the human beings? Yep. So actually, as a leader, having some vulnerability helps people connect with you, and then that builds trust and rapport, and you as a leader, you want to influence people and guide them, don’t you? And that just doesn’t happen if they see you as some sort of robot who you is suppressing all their emotions. And I say I really respect you for, for having that kind of style of leadership because I think it well as we both know, it’s lacking in a lot of places. Thanks for sharing about your experience of shame, though I think even that will just will be so helpful for people to experience to listen to. My personal belief is that actually shining a light on this stuff is just helpful even at an early stage to let nurses know, like, it’s, you’re going to experience shame at somebody. And this is what shame is, it looks and feels like this. I love that metaphor of like, the different flavors of shame, it shows up in these kinds of times. And the more we normalize it and talk about it, the thing that shame doesn’t like is honesty and truth and speaking about it. And when you do that, it kind of like sort of like melt that ice kind of Shamy kind of thing inside. And

Liam Caswell 20:56

yeah, it’s really interesting you say that, because I think that I spend a lot of time trying to normalize what I call like nursing negative narrative, like the nursing negative narrative, I’m just like, it’s normal. Like, why do we expect like our brains to just be like, Oh, nice thing is amazing. Because it’s not AI, we’re just lying to ourselves, when we try and convince ourselves that it should be different than it is. So we can normalize that. And we can experience the shame. And then we can separate it out. And this is like, where the work that you and I do, right? And it’s like, well, how can we then normalize it, experience it, and not use it against ourselves? Not let it stop us from moving forward, not let it throw us into a spiral, you know, where we think that the whole world’s gonna end like so I’ve been there, done that for 12 years, that was my story. And now it’s like, no, like you, when you go for a new job, you’re gonna feel impostor syndrome, like, that’s totally normal, nothing’s gone wrong, you will survive, you’ve been here before. And that in itself just allows people to kind of like, consciously wake up. And they’re like, oh, so I think that that’s super powerful for anybody listening. Let’s not normalizing the inner chart that we have, and seeing how it’s holding us back. But also knowing that it’s optional.

Nathan Illman 22:07

Absolutely. So I’m really interested to know, as you have spoken a little bit, I’ve heard you speak about your experience with psychology and what you did. And it is cognitive behavioral therapy, if I remember correctly, yeah. What was the most powerful thing that you learned from the therapy you had, that you’re sharing with other people,

Liam Caswell 22:28

I’m getting goosebumps when you say that, because I am, I just feel like, psychology, like, changed my life, changed the trajectory of my life, and really helped me just process so much. For me, I did CBT initially, and then I did schema therapy. So I did two types. And initially, the CBT was instrumental in helping me separate out the thought from the fact and it helped me just start seeing the thoughts for what they are by just sentences in my mind, and it helped me start taking back control. And then the schema therapy was instrumental in me, identifying, accepting, loving, respecting all the different parts of me, because I used to use all of that against myself, you know, have a really loud inner critic, that’s why I called my brand high-performance nosing. Because, you know, I’m, I feel like a high performer, I am a high performer. And I used to use that against myself, where now I’m like, That’s my superpower. And that’s what I do really well. So the schema therapy was really, that was a game changer for me, in just building a better relationship with myself. You know, I think a lot of the time, we think that psychologists going to help us change other people, or you know, I don’t know what we think when we go into psychology, but that’s what I thought, I thought the whole world needs to change, I’m fine. Everything else needs to change. And I was in that real victim space, like, everything was happening to me, instead of me seeing that I have full control over my life, my whole world. And it comes from within. And schema therapy, my therapist in Australia was incredible. Both of them were, but she was incredible. And it changed everything about how I talk to myself, I will look after myself, understanding and normalizing what I do, and why I do it. You know, and like, noticing and recognizing like, Oh, that’s right, of course, the credits gonna show up today. Because I’m doing a podcast with Nathan, and it’s gonna be like, You didn’t answer that perfectly. I did. Like, let’s normalize the heck out of that. Instead of afterward, me being like spiraling for the next day. Nothing must think that I’m terrible. Right? And that for me was so so freeing. I have no words like have no words. I used to sweat the small stuff all the time and no, I really don’t think about it. So psychology changed my life.

Nathan Illman 24:52

But obviously, as a psychologist, I’m very pleased to say that this wasn’t set up as a guideway to promote psychology. But you’ve genuinely had a great experience. And that’s so good thing for other people to hear. And also, because of who you are and the fact that you’ve been in a real leadership position and real we trailblazer in what you’re doing as well now, with your business or that kind of thing, it’s so good to hear someone who has been to have therapy and is openly talking about it, and you’re able to explain what it is that changed and why that was helpful. It’s just, I just think it’s essential that we will work on our relationship with ourselves. It can sound bit fluffy and nebulous, but ultimately, the way we interact with the world is dependent on how we relate to ourselves totally. And some of that stuff, like you said, with schema therapy, you know, I’m a big believer in that understanding with different parts of ourselves. Because in any given situation, there are different things at play, where there is that inner critic or as the angry parts of us, or the sad part of us, whatever it is, and that just just awareness of that, in itself, I think can be helpful, because it means we don’t cling to one particular mode, one type of emotion or one particular thought pattern, because you can get some distance from it, like you were saying, you learned how to do.

Liam Caswell 26:13

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that, really what it comes down to is just taking the responsibility for yourself. And I think that that’s where as nurses, we struggle, as we struggled to prioritize ourselves, and to see that we need the help that we need, and to accept that we can change these things internally. Because we’re waiting, right, we’re waiting for the pay rise, we’re waiting for the system to change, we’re waiting for the staffing to get better. And whilst all of that will impact our lives, and we’ll make it better. We’re delaying making it better right now. Because we don’t give ourselves the permission to just check in with what we’re thinking and how we’re feeling. And that self-responsibility piece, like I wish I could just kind of like implant that in everybody in nursing, because I think it would change the whole industry, if we just started showing up and looking after ourselves.

Nathan Illman 27:02

Yeah, completely agree. So let’s sort of move on to talking about the program that you’re running with graduates and kind of where your focus is now. So I’m just curious, just give us a bit of an overview of, but I suppose it is from your own experience as well. But for the people that you work with now, what are some of the anxieties and things those people are going through? And how does what you’re doing now? help with that?

Liam Caswell 27:32

Yeah, I love that question. So we work with graduates in our graduate career launch program, predominantly within Australia. And we work with them in landing and applying for the first job. And we help them with like their CV, their cover letter, the selection criteria in their interview, which is lovely. But really, what we’re helping them with through that whole program is exactly what we’ve talked about today, which is normalizing the nursing negative narrative, it’s helping them see that everything that they’re experiencing is totally normal, and that nothing’s gone wrong, and that you’re not broken and missing a couple of chromosomes like everything is all good. And we help them really identify what they want their nursing career and life to look like. We help empower them ahead of time preventatively, to take control of their careers, and their life so that they’re not in that reactive fight or flight state when they’re in the industry. I truly, truly believe that if we have more people that have the awareness, to be able to manage the thoughts and to manage all of the things that come up as a nurse day to day with the uncertainty and all of the things that happen, that we will be able to build a sustainable nursing career. I think the biggest challenge that people see at the moment is nursing is not a long-term career, because of the way it’s set up. I feel like I’m not qualified enough. At the end of my three-year degree, despite having done all these errors, and all this training. I don’t believe in my abilities to be able to do this because of x, y and z reasons whether that’s personal life experiences or in the industry itself. And then they’ve just had negative really negative experiences like really, really negative placement or university-level experiences. I don’t know if we have time, but I had somebody this week in my help Sunday that’s listening. On Sunday, this week reached out to me she felt so underconfident in her abilities. Despite being a mature age student coming back to nursing after 13 years as an AI N She took a couple of years off. So she got like over 10 years experience as an assistant in nursing. Came back after having a couple of kids first year in uni did really incredibly well at university got amazing results. And she was told that she was accused of academic misconduct. And this is like spiral tar for the second year of her degree and she’s now lost all our confidence and all of the things and of course, we had a great coaching conversation. But it all came out in the wash and there was absolutely nothing wrong there. But these are the types of experiences that people are having, you know, they’re showing up they’re doing their best they’re putting in the work And then as an industry, like we’re just imposing in projecting all of our crap onto each other, instead of just being like, Wow, you’re a mature age student you’ve committed, you’ve done the work, you’ve got three kids, how incredible. We need people like you. Yeah, exactly. So we had to talk about confidence and all of the things. So really, you know, it’s the individuals’ experience, it’s there, it’s their belief about themselves. And it’s their perceived fear or worry about what’s going to happen that we try and tackle in this program. And, and show them that even if those things happen. You get to decide you get to leave, you get to move on, you get to choose a different path. But as long as you’re aware of your thinking around that, we help them see that they have all the options and all the choice.

Nathan Illman 30:43

It sounds like an amazing program. And well, I know you had success with it last year, you’re expanding it this year. It’s clearly a resource. And yeah, just support that he’s gonna help lots of people so well done you for even setting it up. And yeah, it’s amazing work.

Liam Caswell 31:00

Yeah, thank you.

Nathan Illman 31:01

I think we’ll leave it there. As you know, I love chatting with him. We’re obviously going to connect again soon. But I just wanna say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and

Liam Caswell 31:11

You’re so welcome. Thank you always.