Ep 21: What is Professional Nurse Advocacy and why is it needed?

Posted July 11, 2023

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Show Notes —

Today’s episode is all about the story of how nurses are supporting other nurses in the UK.

We dive deep into the Professional Nurse Advocacy (PNA) program in the UK and how it is helping with nurse wellbeing and staff retention.

I chat to Martin Hogan, Lead Professional Nurse Advocate for a large healthcare organisation in the UK. He shares his story of how he got into supporting other nurses, and how his leadership is making an impact on staff wellbeing.

Thinking about becoming a PNA? Want to know more about the program?

Listen to this conversation as Martin shares how being a PNA has changed his life and that of others.

KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE

PNAs are trained to provide Restorative Clinical Supervision (RCS). This is a psychologically safe, confidential space where you can talk about how you are and offload.
Martin sees himself as an emotional detective that explores things about other people, their coping strategies, and what he can do to help.
Informal corridor conversation is where Martin had typically received his own supervision, before more formalised systems like the PNA program. This is likely true of many nurses.
Martin shared that he gained much from the PNA course and changed his practice as a result.
Being a PNA enables you to be really in touch with your own human experience. It permits you to acknowledge your feelings.
Through compassionate communication, Martin knew that he could support people through anything.
Empathic listening is all someone needs to begin with to feel heard, understood, and safe.
Martin talks about the structure of sessions when running a PNA session.
Feedback from others about the PNA program has been overwhelmingly positive for Martin. It has helped improve wellbeing in staff and has led to increased retention of staff where he works.
Martin shares information about the roll-out of the PNA program and how people can access it.
We discussed barriers to the program being adopted within nursing. We discuss how some older colleagues may be resistant to change. However, many younger nurses “get” the idea of clinical supervision and have a desire to discuss emotions.

Today’s Guest:

Martin Hogan is a lead professional nurse advocate at Central London Community Healthcare. After the first wave of the Covid pandemic, he was redeployed from his Macmillan specialist nurse role in acute oncology to intensive care. However, being redeployed to intensive care, he found people did sit him down and openly talk about their feelings, which he found crucial as a form of preventative mental health first aid.

After the second wave of the pandemic, Martin decided to continue to champion the voice of his nursing profession and join the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) as the Senior Officer for Surrey.

In 2021, his career took on to work within mental health and education. At that point, he took the Professional Nurse Advocate (PNA) course at Kingston University.

Connect with Martin Hogan here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-hogan-b0a167138/

https://twitter.com/advocacy_forum

Follow Nathan and Nurse Wellbeing Mission for more practical preventative mental health tools for nurses and midwives:

Join our free Facebook group for wellbeing resources: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nursewellbeingmission

Find our wellbeing services at our website: www.nursewellbeingmission.com

Instagram: @_nursewellbeingmission

Twitter: @NurseWellbeing

📌 Join our free Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nurse…

Transcript —

Nathan Illman 00:00

If you’re a nurse or midwife and you’re feeling stressed, burned out, and things are just really getting on top of you, where do you turn to for support? Are there people within your organization that you can turn to typically in the past, where have people been able to get support? Well, Historically, there hasn’t been much-formalized support within both nursing and midwifery, but luckily in recent years, there has been a rollout of the professional nurse advocacy and professional midwifery advocacy programs, and this is an exciting development within the professions. Finally, acknowledging the need for conversations that focus on the emotional and human needs. Of you guys, the people who are dealing with these really challenging situations. Today’s episode is all about these two programs. I talked to Martin Hogan, who is the lead PNA. For Central London Community Healthcare, NHS Trust Martin is an absolute pioneer of the PNA program. He is a hundred percent behind it and has demonstrated its effectiveness, and he is extremely passionate about supporting nurses and developing this program. So the profession at large were both nursing and midwifery. Have a more robust support structure built within them for the long term so people can enjoy their roles, can progress in their careers, and ultimately provide safe and effective patient care. So this is a fantastic conversation with Martin. Martin is a lovely guy. He’s really inspiring. He clearly loves what he does, and he’s the kind of person who is in a position of leadership who really speaks from the heart and is really out there to make a positive change because of how much he believes in what he’s doing. So it’s, it really does rub off on you when you’re speaking to Martin. So, I invite you to continue listening to find out more about the PNA program. Just a quick bit of housekeeping for me, if you haven’t heard this podcast before. My name’s Nathan Ilman. I’m founder of Nurse Wellbeing Mission, and you can follow me on other social media channels as well as this podcast on your podcast catches, so you can find me on Instagram. It’s at underscore Nurse Wellbeing Mission. You can join my free Facebook group if you just type in Nurse and Midwife Wellbeing Mission. You can come along there and you can get. A bunch of well-being tips and resources, videos, things that I make on there, which I get frequent feedback that it’s helping people. So I really recommend you come there. It’s also LinkedIn. You can find me, just Nathan Illman. It’s I L L M A N. So without further ado, I bring you this conversation about professional nurse advocacy. With Martin Hogan. Let’s get right into it. Martin, thank you so much for joining me on NAS Wellbeing Mission Podcast.

Martin Hogan 03:06

Thank you for having me.

Nathan Illman 03:07

Yeah, no worries. So let’s dig in. Why don’t you start by telling us about your role, what you are currently doing now, and a little bit of context as to Yeah? Who you are.

Martin Hogan 03:18

Yeah, so I’m Martin Hogan and I’m a lead professional nurse advocate at Central London Community Healthcare. Um, I’m a general nurse by background, and I’ve come into this role after qualifying as a. Professional nurse advocate or PNA as I’ll use from here on out, cause it’s quite a mouthful to say, what I’m trying to achieve now in my organization is to implement the role of the PNA. Uh, so this is a nurse who’s been trained at masters level like me to deliver all things like mental health, first aid, restorative supervision, career conversations, and quality improvement. So my role is strategic, but we’re, I’m a man of many hats. So I’m a mentor, a practice assessor, a strategist, and trying to um, get protected time for our PNAS to be able to go off and support the workforce through restorative supervision and all the other PNA activities.

Nathan Illman 04:06

Great. And can you talk a little bit more about what is restorative supervision?

Martin Hogan 04:10

Yeah, so it’s psychologically, we’ve got lots of supervision, which I think always confuses people. Um, so we have clinical supervision for our allied health professionals. That’s really embedded there. But in nursing, it’s kind of hit-and-miss. I, I never had supervision for the probably 20 years of my career, and I was in roles like being a million specialist nurse, but I really could have had some form of supervision. I would’ve flat. De up. So restorative supervision is the cousin of clinical supervision. It’s not taking away from, it’s adding into, and it’s about you, the person, the holistic person. You don’t change who you are as a person. The moment you put your uniform on, you still have your stresses, an anxieties from home or from work. So it’s psychologically safe. Space, a confidential space where you can talk about how you really are and offload. And I’m not a psychotherapist. I’m a PNA. So I see myself as, as an emotional detective. I’m here to explore all things about you, your coping strategies, and what I can do to help. Often it’s just having a shoulder to cry on or a psychologically safe space to really get to the crux of the issue and why you are having work-related stress and what I could maybe do to support you through action planning at the end of supervision.

Nathan Illman 05:20

It’s incredible that the PNA program actually exists. And I think, as I’ve shared with you before, it was one of my kind of reflections about from an outsider mm-hmm. Looking in at nursing was how shocked I was that there was no regular, what you guys call restorative supervision in the psychology world. It’s kind of just supervision, clinical supervision, which includes that as well. Yeah. So it’s fantastic that things have moved on and there has been a, well, there is a perhaps slow culture change, but we’ll get, we’ll get into that. But, um, I’m really curious to know, so you mentioned that for 20 years, you didn’t get anything? No. So just tell us a little bit about. Any kind of support, emotional support that was provided to you, and what you might have seen other colleagues or friends getting, if at all?

Martin Hogan 06:11

Yeah, so I had a bit of a horrible time when I was newly qualified. Maybe it’s cuz I’m emotionally intelligent. I kind of latched onto people a little bit, like a cling-on. If I think they’re really good mentor or leads or there’s something about them, I think, oh, that person could really help me in my career. So I then, Kept borrowing mentors, wherever, Jo, whatever job I had, I would seek out someone that, you know, I liked their leadership style or they seemed supportive and we’d just have informal chats or, you know, we’d be in a WhatsApp group or we’d go for a walk o on our lunch break. So you’d have that informal corridor conversations, um, as forms of support. And then you’d have like a regular meeting with your manager, but it was very much like, have you met your KPIs? Have you done your mandatory training? What’s happened here? So I guess it’s the informal support and what nurses are great at is coming together as like, an army or a family. Like we really, you, I felt really looked after by the areas I worked most of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. Um, so I’d say it was probably the informality, the corridor conversations that I got support from.

Nathan Illman 07:15

And it sounds like you really took the initiative to seek that support as well, whereas I imagine a lot of other people didn’t necessarily or wouldn’t have necessarily initiated that and sought out as perhaps as much informal support as you did. Yeah. Something I’m really curious to know then from your perspective is why did it take until the past few years to establish a more formalized system of support within nursing for the emotional nature of the role?

Martin Hogan 07:43

Yeah, that’s a really great question. I remember sort of maybe 10 ish years ago, clinical supervision was brought into different areas, different specialties, and in community and district nursing, they ran with it. They had it, it was embedded, but in intensive care where I was at the time. There was no time. It was absolutely impossible. Short staffing, no resources. So it kind of just died to death really. And I think it did a lot in the acute hospitals, mainly down to time. Lack of buy-in from people, lack of resources, and lack of staff. I think that sort of people like, I’m too busy to get support, or, I’m too busy for change. Uh, you can just cope with what’s in your line of sight.

Nathan Illman 08:24

Yeah, it’s, it’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s, yeah. In the short term, it feels like just doing more is, is gonna help. And then, yeah. Unfortunately, that doesn’t really solve things in the long term. I know. Yeah. So why is the PNA program different in your opinion?

Martin Hogan 08:37

Well, I’m not gonna sound biased, although I am, I guess cuz I’m a PNA, but for me, it just changed my career and it changed the way I thought and changed how I stood if that makes sense. Like mm-hmm. I really. I started on the course not really knowing anything about quality improvement or supervision or career conversations and really leadership. And so I gained so much from even just undertaking the course and it’s changed my practice. I’m a safer practitioner because I have better boundaries. I know how to look after myself, therefore I’m safer for my patients. Um, and I think it’s, I feel like I’m a walking EpiPen for health and wellbeing, and I kind of see that’s the role of the PNA. You know, we, we all mirrors. To help support you through challenging times and, and get you better and recover you. So I, I literally think it’s the best thing I’ve ever done. And the other PNAS that I know or have spoken to, they’ve all feel the same. Like it’s changed us and it’s given us something that we probably knew a little bit about, but it’s elevated that.

Nathan Illman 09:35

Enables you to be really in touch with your own human experience as well. Yeah. I guess it gives you permission to actually acknowledge your own feelings. It really, in a formalized way, it gives you permission to really connect with your colleagues to actually ask, uh, those questions that are going to build connection and vulnerability.

Martin Hogan 09:54

Yeah. I love that. Give. That is exactly how I feel, Nathan. It’s given me permission to do all of these things. Yeah, that’s a really good synopsis of how I felt.

Nathan Illman 10:03

So something I’d really like to know is you mentioned, you said we’re not, I’m not a psychotherapist. Yeah. And you’ve talked about all these, the, the ways in which you provide that psychologically safe space.I imagine there must be some people out there who they are a PNA, or they want to be a PNA and they are kind of thinking about this idea of boundaries and mm-hmm. You know, this is great being in this role, but you know, what do I do if. Someone shares this thing. Yeah, there’s lots of questions around that kind of thing, so I’m curious to know how do you manage that and what advice would you give to other people.

Martin Hogan 10:38

Yeah, great question. So within and I felt those things when I qualified and I was working in mental health and I thought, oh no, I hope no one brings anything too difficult. Cause I dunno what to do. Mm-hmm. But actually what I remember is that I am a nurse with transferable skills and I always know what to do in any situation.I’ve worked in a and e. You know, on Friday night in Brighton, there were lots of people in mental health crises, and although I wasn’t a mental health nurse, I knew that through compassionate communication care, I could support people through anything. And whilst we had the luxury of being in a and a, you had, you know, site liaison team down the corridor, sometimes you don’t have that as a PNA.So what I’m trying to do in my role is, Have these things called refer on systems. So we have our monthly like community of practice, which is a just a nice get-together where we talk about how we are matters arising. But then we have psychologists in our organization and within our, around our organizations, we’ve also got lots of. Different options for psychotherapy and counseling. So we could refer people on if needed it. And I’m always available for any of our PNAs. If they ever need to talk to me about something or they’ve had a difficult conversation, they dunno what to do. So there’s that sort of governance process to safeguard and mitigate any risk.

Nathan Illman 11:52

It sounds like it’s a nice combination of you trusting in yourself and your own abilities. And I guess coming back to that, The basics of connection, right? Yeah. Is that, you know, you trained as a nurse and yes, of course you know these other technical skills, but the main thing is, you know, you actually work with human beings. Yeah. And you know, if you just fall back on that compassion, the thing is gonna be okay. And as well as having these other systems of support. Which I’m extremely sensible and necessary that help protect you and, and will help protect other people when they feel kind of a bit out of their depth and they, yeah, to help someone move on somewhere else that’s a bit more specialist.

Martin Hogan 12:28

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s much needed as well. I think it just reduces the anxiety from PNAs.

Nathan Illman 12:35

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cause I mean, I think I shared this when I, um, came on the call with you guys. You know how when I first trained as a, as a clinical psychologist, first time you were learning to do therapy. You know, even though you kind of, you sort of know that you’ve got good people skills, you’ve got emotional intelligence. Yeah. Suddenly the responsibility of being in a session, and I, I think it’s part of it’s that is putting pressure on ourselves. Yeah. Putting pressure, oh my goodness. I, I’ve got to fix everything. And I think when you get into that kind of mindset, that’s when you start to worry and you start to not be present with the person. Mm-hmm. And actually, often empathic listening is really all someone needs to begin with to feel heard, understood, to feel safe. And once you do those basics, you can make transformation with someone in that. Yeah. You know, at least calm someone and get them in a state in which you can then start to problem-solve perhaps. Exactly. Which you guys see great at.

Martin Hogan 13:30

Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Illman 13:31

All right. So I’d love to know a little bit more about, so the structure of the sessions. Um, I know you’ve mentioned there’s this different aspect of things, but for you, when you are running a PNA session, do you have like, you know, a kind of a gender of how you run them? Or are they quite flexible? Just talk me through what it kind of looks like.

Martin Hogan 13:49

Absolutely. So I am not very formal person, but in my role, I’ve become very formal. I have the ability to be very creative. So if you want to have a formal restorative supervision session, we’ve got referral form on a QR code, and you can pick what PNA activity you want to have before you come to the session. And we might have sort of 45 minutes. Of delivering the supervision where the first 10 are, boundary setting and contracting. And then it’s lovely because then it’s over to you to talk about how you are. How you really are. Yeah. And I might ask some explorative questions, but I’m not doing all the talking, which was a very hard skill for me to learn not to do as a nurse, as a fixer in the beginning. Yeah. But I’ve become quite a master with silence and pausing. And then it’s a kind of at the end where we have this action sort of learning set or action planning where even if you’re coming to talk to me about something personal that isn’t related to work, I will give you or we will collaborate on what actions you can take in order to improve or to recover or to heal whatever it is that you need to do. And so that’s the formal. Uh, side of it, whereas the informal, because I work in a massive organization, it’s geographically huge like Hertfordshire everywhere in London, I invented like informal models of practice, so I’m quite a child and I have quite playful imagination. So we’ve got the walkie-talkie model of community PNA activity, which is where I just walk a district nurse their next visit for 20 minutes. And we just sense check and do a wellbeing check of how they are, how they really are. They go off to see the patient. I go off into some coffee shop and get my laptop out and then I meet them for the walk back and it’s just to give them, cuz people have said to me, I don’t have time Martin. Like I’d love to do all this stuff, but I don’t have time. So I’ve kind of invented time that they already have. So the walk to their next patient, they have to do anyway. They’re not doing any clinical work. So it’s in completely informal and trying to adapt the needs of the workforce.

Nathan Illman 15:44

I think that’s absolutely incredible and I think, you know, we need to see more of that within mental health in general. I know there are some quite innovative ways, and of course like digital, mental health interventions have obviously proliferated in the past 20, 30 years. But yeah, also meeting people where they’re at and what their preferences are as well. Yeah. So some people prefer to talk on the phone, some people prefer to have texting or voice notes, that kinda thing. Yeah. It sounds like you’ve really looked at the broad needs of different groups of people and tried to like you said, be playful. I love that. I love playful child like mine. It’s amazing. And what kind of feedback have you had as well? Well, we’ll talk about some of the more objective stuff around The, your evaluation, other evaluations of the PNA program. But, but what’s the kind of feedback that you’ve been getting subjectively from people?

Martin Hogan 16:36

Yeah. So when in, when I was in mental health five months ago, I was running our newly qualified, uh, course, which was called preceptorship and. At the end of the program, people would say to me, and it made me really emotional that I’d been their rock, or they would’ve just left if it hadn’t been for me. They didn’t know how to cha do all these situations and now they’re gonna become the next leaders of tomorrow. And I thought, oh gosh, did I do this cuz I’m a P? Oh, I did this because I’ve trained as a PNA and now I can, therefore I do. So the feedback has just been overwhelmingly. Positive to the point where I’ve actually sent all my data on our post-evaluation form to our r and d team, just to make sure that I’m not like fiddling with the books or like making it up like I want. I want people to actually believe that these are the sometimes immeasurable feedback that we are getting from people. You’re really making a difference.

Nathan Illman 17:25

Yeah. I mean that’s incredible and I think, like you say, it’s important to feed that back to other people as well, isn’t it? To Yes. Yeah. To demonstrate to people who are perhaps sat in an office somewhere who aren’t seeing yes. Seeing the delivery of Yeah. A program which has been funded. Uh, so can you tell us a little bit about the rollout of the PNA program and where it’s at, and how it’s being evaluated?

Martin Hogan 17:52

Yeah, so the rollout, so NHS England have kind of suggested that each organization has a PNA lead, for example, who can do all the strategy stuff and support each individual organization because we’re all different. So we’ll all need very different things. So we’re trying to standardize that all. N H S organizations will have one PNA to support 20 nurses. They each, you’ve got massive organizations with massive number of staff. So each, uh, trust each PNA lead has a sort of creative license to look at what’s actually needed within that organization for our trust, for example, we’ve got loads of people waiting to start their course, which would be fantastic cause we’ll have lots of PNAs. Um, but at the minute we don’t have protected time. So I’m using all of our measures for success to then sort of brag to our executives, say, well look, actually if we got protected time, we could be improving retention on a much bigger scale. Uh, reducing sickness, absence, say. I think lots of organizations are very far ahead. They’ve got protected time, they’re doing a wonderful work, but everyone’s sort of a different step in their journey, which is far and that’s completely fine and acceptable. And I know that NHS England are doing a MA or have done recently a massive piece of research to evaluate the impact on what PNAS are doing to support the workforce. So there was a big research piece published by Dr. Liz Lees Doy, and that can be found on NHS futures and its kind. Really, you know, everything that we know to be true, that by having that psychologically safe space, you’re improving people’s mental health and ability to cope and therefore reducing their sickness absence.

Nathan Illman 19:21

Amazing. And what do you see as the main challenges to mass rollout of the PNA program?

Martin Hogan 19:28

So, it’s really interesting cause I was, I was a little bit like, you know, a giddy school child coming into this role thinking this will be easy, this is all I’ve got to focus on. But I’ve been, I’ve met with. Quite a bit of resistance and actually it’s resistance from people that I found quite surprising, which is actually the nursing workforce. Mm-hmm. And I thought, no, you can’t be resistant because I’m trying to do this for you to help you. Mm-hmm. Now it’s not because they find me really annoying, it’s because they just, they don’t. They’re not in the space where they feel that they would benefit from supervision or they don’t trust me yet because I’m new, or they don’t really see the benefit of why we would do quality improvement or, or having career conversations. And someone very frankly told me the other day, oh, I thought you were a spy, Martin. Like, I thought the director sent you in to spy on us. And I went, no, she, she sent me in because she thought I could help. So I think, it’s a big piece around trust and understanding what this is. It’s a bit new to different areas of nursing as well. Um, we don’t really like new things as nurses. I’ve come to, we say we love change, but we don’t really like change because it feels like something else.

Nathan Illman 20:32

In an already busy environment with a lack of resources to then I suppose, change occupies headspace to think about a new thing. To learn a new skill. Yeah. Make space for something when you are, yeah. Grind of the day-to-day job is exactly. Intense and stressful. Yeah, I can really understand that. I think it’s, it does, it does. And yeah, there, there is truth to that, isn’t there? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like change does require effort, but I guess it’s the, on the other side of the effort is the growth and the potential improvement in well-being or whatever it is in performance for the team or the service.

Martin Hogan 21:05

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s really interesting when the people that were saying this really useful intelligence to me, they said, well, Martin, I do actually feel burnt out. And I said, I know because you’re not getting what I’m trying to sell to you. I get that you get, you’re burnt out. That’s why I’m here. But I, you know, and I just think back to days that I have been burnt out. When anyone said to me, oh, there, there’s something new that might help. It’s like, no, no, no. I’ll go back to my own coping strategies, which are rubbish, but this is what I know and this is where I feel comfortable.

Nathan Illman 21:34

So I’m interested cause it sounds like you, you’ve been talking to people who are in positions of leadership around this. Have you noticed resistance from particular types of people? So for example, people who might be, I dunno, perhaps a bit older or miss more senior compared to younger, perhaps new graduates. Um, yeah, what does that look like?

Martin Hogan 21:55

Yeah, that is such a good question cuz it’s so true. So people who, the older sort of nurses who’ve been around a bit longer in the organization have said to me, oh, we’ve done something like this before. Had that rollout of clinical supervision, it didn’t work. So this isn’t gonna work either. Yeah. And I was like, oh, well just give it a go. We’ll see. But the younger nurses, the TikTok generation, I call them, they all say to me, oh no, I get this. I’ve seen it on TikTok. I’ve seen it on something. Like, I understand what it is, and actually can I have some? So I think there’s such a need and an acceptance from the, the younger generation of like, actually I need support and I will ask for it. Whereas my generation, It was kind of forbidden to ask for help. You just had to get on with it so that you then inherit the other generations just toughen up and that’s not healthy and that’s not helping retention.

Nathan Illman 22:41

No, not at all. So I guess, I mean that is quite a big obstacle or challenge. Well, I don’t really like the word obstacles cuz we don’t wanna position people as obstacles. But I guess a collective mindset or belief system can be an obstacle to change. Yeah. So what are your thoughts around navigating that then? So you’ve got this great program, you’re starting to build some momentum and, and get some data. What needs to happen within organizations? Is it just constant ongoing discussions? Is it presenting that data? I mean, what? What do you think about changing the minds of people who are in more senior positions of leadership who are perhaps of an older generation with that type of mindset?

Martin Hogan 23:18

I think it’s sort of being tactical of thinking, well, actually that’s useful intelligence, so why is that person being resistant? So, Now I’m, you know, expert in quality improvement and in quality improvement. You have to ask yourself why three times, right? To get to the crux of the issue. So now I kind of utilize that to do supervisional to get buy-in. I’m like, but why do you not see the point? And why is that? Oh, why are you burnt out? And that’s kind of working slowly, but I kind of need to clone me a bit more. So we’ve got lots of people who are graduating as PNAs, who I’ve been their teacher, I’ve been their practice assessor, and now they’re doing the work for me. So it’s growing. It is slowly coming and I think to get sort of senior buy-in, it’s definitely using that data, the pre and post-evaluation to, and looking at that kind of research, uh, to demonstrate the worth. And then going to your finance team and, and trying to look at, you know, Is what I’m doing, improving the money of each division or each organization by meaning that they’re not having lots of people going off six, so, therefore, they’re not having to use agency. So that’s a big piece of work that I’m slowly working on, but I think we’re getting there and I think slow and steady is much better than astronomical rise because I think with astronomical rises, they won’t be sustainable. And what I want this to be is sustainable for our all of our organizations.

Nathan Illman 24:37

Yeah. So something I’m curious about as well is, um, have there been influences from nursing in other countries that have been informing the PNA program or the, or the way you think about providing restorative supervision in this kind of, this nice mix of Yeah.Kind of coaching and supporting your staff.

Martin Hogan 24:53

I think it’s the other way around actually, because, like Canada and America and Australia, they’re lapping up the PNA program. So England and NHS England are kind of leading, you know, internationally and globally with stuff like this. Because actually international nursing, we don’t have supervision and this is kind of a new concept to a lot of countries. So yeah, it’s kind of the opposite.

Nathan Illman 25:17

Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah, I know. And you and you’ve got a very important role. So it’s, it’s, yeah. The influence you are having is, is massive, isn’t it?

Martin Hogan 25:24

Thank you. It feels like that. But again, it’s been slow and steady, which, I’m happy with now.

Nathan Illman 25:30

Yeah. And it’s culture change, isn’t it? Like we’ve just been talking about and culture change doesn’t happen. Well, I mean, it’s different on a more local level within an organization because if you, you just suddenly got rid of, The CEO of an organization brought someone in, and you probably could relatively quickly change culture, but you were talking about a profession, aren’t we? It’s mm-hmm. So, you know Yeah. Hundreds of thousands of people working Yeah. In multiple different organizations. Absolutely. Um, so tell us how people can become a PNA. What do I need to do if they’re interested in this program?

Martin Hogan 26:03

So you can have a look at NHS England Future page so that you can just Google PNAs NHS Futures and there’s like a descriptor. So essentially you have to have evidence of studying at degree level, level six, and have some understanding of how you’re going to do PNA activity in your current role. Each organization will have someone in a role. Which will have an aspect of being a lead, PNA, or you might have someone like me who’s in a dedicated lead. So you get in touch with them and we, I, for example, have an eligibility criteria. So we’re looking for people in the right role, um, understand, uh, what’s expected of them. So they have to like e online learning. Then get their manager’s approval as well, because if the manager says no, then that’s going to be really difficult to release them, to get them on the course. And then I just have. Informal chats with anyone, aspirin, PNAss. I think most of the leads or organizations will have the same as well. That’s fantastic.

Nathan Illman 26:56

Before we finish, is there any other final information you think is relevant to people if they want to find out more about this or perhaps where to find you if they’re interested in, in following you in the program?

Martin Hogan 27:05

Yeah, absolutely. So I wasn’t very good at social media two years ago. Then I started on this PNA journey and I’ve got this massive following on Twitter, so you can follow me on Twitter, which is at advocacy forum. And that’s kind of just an informal space of all things PNA and. NHS England’s uh, PNA page as well, which you can Google.

Nathan Illman 27:26

Amazing. Well, thanks so much Martin. It really is just such a pleasure talking to you and like I’ve said it, you know what you’re doing with the PNA program. It aligns so much with what I like to do as well. Yeah. With Na Wellbeing mission, and I’m just so pleased people like you exist finally, leading change with providing that. Really crucial support to nurses within nursing as well. I think it’s, you know, there needs to be a combination isn’t there of within uh, and outside of, of a profession, so, exactly.

Martin Hogan 27:54

Thank you and thanks for having me. This has been fantastic.

Nathan Illman 27:58

Before you go, I just wanna kindly ask you for one more minute of your time. Firstly, how good was that conversation with Martin? It was so wonderful listening to his passion, his enthusiasm, and hearing about the success of the PNA program. If you enjoyed this episode, I really recommend you subscribe to the podcast right now so you get access to future episodes straight away when I publish them. The other thing I want to quickly tell you about is a little bit about me and Nurse Wellbeing Mission and what I offer. One of the things that I provide as part of Nurse Wellbeing mission is training around self-compassion, helping nurses and midwives develop core skills related to taking care of themselves, and in a climate in which there are scant resources and more and more pressures. This kind of work is so important now. Martin and I talked today about the role of the PNA and as far as I’m concerned for people who are supporting the emotional needs of other people, self-compassion work is even more essential because when we are the ones containing other people, we need some skills around self-care to talk to ourselves kindly and to manage our own emotions effectively. So I provide self-compassion training for organizations and indeed for individuals. So if you think that would be. Of use and helpful for you or your staff, then please get in touch with me. You can find me on my website@nursewellbeingmission.com or find me on LinkedIn. As I said at the beginning, it’s Nathan Illman, I L L M A N, and just shoot me a dm. I would love to hear from you and start a conversation. So everyone, until the next episode, I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. Take care for now. Bye.